Curse

Div · May 09, 2008, 07:52 PM // 19:52

What kind of bullshit is this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anet's "higher up" guy

Rather than introducing another skill update this week, we're finishing a new system to balance key skills separately for PvP and PvE. Within the next few weeks, we'll introduce PvP versions for a handful of skills. These skills will work the same way as normal skills, but have different number values (damage, healing, cost, recharge, and so on). We will do this as sparingly as possible and start with very few skills. So that we don't confuse players, we intend to keep as many skills unchanged as we can.

PvP versions are designed to target only specific skills. With such a system we can revert high-impact nerfs, such as Light of Deliverance and Defensive Anthem, to make them strong again in PvE. When we see something becoming severely imbalanced in PvP, we'd like to avoid harsh PvE nerfs without creating different versions of a large number of skills.

Skills that differ in PvP will have (PvP) at the end of their names when in PvP outposts and matches. These skills will automatically be adjusted within PvP outposts and matches. All players have to do is equip the skill as normal, and it will use the PvP version where appropriate.

We've decided to release our next skill balance update simultaneously with these changes. We can take full advantage of the new skill balancing mechanism and avoid multiple balances over a short time frame.

Seriously, that's just retarded. Monking (as well as other classes too I'd say) is a lot about feel and not actual numbers memorization. If I get an 80 point radar range LoD in PvE and a 65 point shout range in PvP, that's going to mess up my feel. Similarly, damage skills would work the same. From PvE experiences, I'd be expected to kill a target. But wait! The PvP version is different! Oops the target lived.

So basically now any PvPer who wants to PvE will have to sacrifice their "feel" for the skills of the game, and any PvEr who wants to get into PvP will find that their super overpowered skill becomes absolutely abysmal. There is absolutely no bridge between the two anymore.

Even if the skill power differences are not that big now, imagine what'll happen when PvE skills only get buffed, while PvP skills get nerfed for the most part over time. You can easily see what happens over time by imagining if we had the PvE/PvP separation when the game first started. Then compare things like searing flames, ether renewal, etc.

Essentially, GW2 *needs* to be 2 separate games if this PvP/PvE decision is kept.

Let me know if this is an accurate description:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Div

You can list many, many PvE skills that range from slightly to moderately to way overpowered compared to regular skills. The biggest problem with skill changes affecting PvE is the vocal idiot group who goes around Guru or GWOnline and cries about how their skills got "killed" because of PvP. If they did get "killed" why do they continue using them? And who uses anything besides Ursan anyways? Those are the exactly same people who resort to ursan anyways, so it's not like changing other skills affect them.

Most of the players that I've talked to are just fine with skill balances. It gives them an opportunity to test new builds (provided there are some buffs) and makes the game more refreshing. I can venture a guess and say at least 2/3 don't even know about skill updates, so obviously they're not affected.

I think if future updates come with as many buffs as nerfs, there will be a good reason to argue against the retards who cry about their splinter getting changed so they can't abuse it in barrage farming. In fact, we can use their "lrn2adapt" that they always keep on the tip of their tongues against them.

But before all this, fix VoD

I think the question is: was this really worth their time? Even without the obvious disadvantages of completely breaking apart PvP and PvE, is this a positive change and will this fix anything? Sure, it may seem great that we're separating all the skills for easy balance, but is this going to benefit the part of the PvE community that enjoy changing up their skills every so often? If Anet simply fixed VoD, it can easily revert all changes to things like splinter, ancestors, and just about every AoE skill in the game to previously powerful levels without essentially creating 2 separate games. I consider this to be the same as adding swimming pools to purchasable houses in GW2 (or any Sardelac suggestion): sure, it may seem cool and great, but is this worth their time?

Additional edits:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makkert

wouldn't a simple solution be to play a completely different profession in PvE then you normally do in PvP then? This way, it wouldn't mess up your feel too bad, no? I know, still a bit icky.... just shooting out ideas.

You raise a good point, and this was something I was just talking to Silmor about in guild chat. Before, you can literally use PvE as a training ground for PvP. I told a little story about how I first learned about projectile attacks from tundra giants in the droks run, and how I "cleverly" moved behind a rock to stop those attacks while blasting away with my ele's non-line-of-sight spells. Things like that don't happen anymore. Why would you need any sort of clever maneuver when you can c-space with SY or hit 1234 on recharge in ursan?

I guess what I'm getting at is that instead of using PvE to hone your skills (oh believe me, my monking actually improves by playing PvE), you have to avoid it to not lose your feel?

EndlessDivination · May 09, 2008, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Makes sense to me.. most nerfs were b/c of the pvp usage

Tyla · May 09, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

/Agree.
Althought now you're not pro PvE.

Either way, you're right about the "Feel" part. By a longshot.

the ruloes · May 09, 2008, 08:01 PM // 20:01

This could turn out pretty well, though.

They've already done this, kinda, with PvE-only skills. Now they're doing the same to PvP, making PvP only skills.

How many times haven't we seen people screaming that paragons are imba and should never have been introduced to the game, the same thing with assasins, as well as nightfall skills.

If they do this right, PvP could be so much better, since it'll mean they have "unrestricted" balancing opportunities. No longer will they have to hold back because the PvE "tards" are whining that they will have to bring a 3-monk backline to their ursan. No longer will they need to court to all the people killing mallyx, and instead be able to court solely to the people that really matter - the PvP'ers.

This is the first step in, what seems to be, a crusade against what many people have complained about - overpowered skills and playstyles in PvP. Now A-net are unleashing themselves and preparing to give PvP a grand overhaul of unrestricted balance.

As I said, if they do this right, it will mark a major revitalisation for PvP in Guild Wars.

Ec]-[oMaN · May 09, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by the ruloes

This is the first step in, what seems to be, a crusade against what many people have complained about - overpowered skills and playstyles in PvP. Now A-net are unleashing themselves and preparing to give PvP a grand overhaul of unrestricted balance.

As I said, if they do this right, it will mark a major revitalisation for PvP in Guild Wars.

The thing is, by the time this thing is rolled out, and by the time the PvP skills get further tweaked, who's going to be around(PvP'ers) to cry foul or applaud said changes?

FoxBat · May 09, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

In GW2 this seperation sounds built-in anyway. GvG and other e-sport PvP is held at some modest "level cap", while PvE/Mist battle scales endlessly or to a rediculously high level. They can adjust the per-level scaling and effectively target adjustments to real pvp vs rest of the game without even needing seperate skill categories. The "feel" of the skills in both systems will be dramatically different regardless.

Biggest PITA now for GW1- you can't see the changed numbers, or even which skills are changed, outside of PvP outposts. Guess what kind of outpost Guild Halls are...

Jenn · May 09, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Poor baby.
I'm sure PvE has suffered a great loss.

On the other hand, at least for damage skills, I think it's somewhat fair.
For example:

PvE Rodgort's Invocation: 200dmg
PvP Rodgort's Invocation: 120dmg

PvE HM monster: 3213213241 health, 3424 armor
PvP peron: 600HP, 60+AL

I feel like in this example, the "feel" will be more similar than depicted in your post. But until we have real numbers, and it actually happens, it'll be hard to judge.

As for monking, I'm a bit unsure. I know if I play monk in PvE, I'll still be pre-protting and watching where enemies run to pre-kite, etc. I think healing will be a different story if LoD heals for like 100HP every 5 seconds in contrast to 65hp every 10 seconds in PvP. I agree that the disparity there is harmful because monking is still player-to-ally interaction.

But hey, what do I know. I'm just a retarded riverside scrub who might just be relishing the karma.

Turbobusa · May 09, 2008, 08:11 PM // 20:11

As you said I hope nerfed skill because of PvE will be reverted just as PvP nerfs will be reverted in PvE. That's the least of what they can do imo.

The gap between PvE and PvP will be so big it's one or the other if you're not playing daily.When prophecies was released, the desert area at least taught you the PvP very basics by giving you the rules, but now that the skills aren't the same, that you have dumb AI, PvE skills, heroes, and consumables that is never going to get you into PvP.

I know people have been asking for this for a long time but this is just the easy and dumb way of doing things imo. Most of the time, they were angry PvEers/farmers (but isn't the whole PvE thing farming now?) who were ranting without considering the benefit of the nerf they were complaining about.

The "monsters are tougher" just isn't true. AI is red engine dumb, the armor difference doesn't make up for the ennemy reaction to what your build is. In PvE there is none, you build to beat and the ennemy don't do shit to counter you.

But again, ANet is a business company, and shows us money > game play.

t00115577 · May 09, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

bout time imo, finally the might stop favoring the minimal pvp comunity compared to the bigger pve one.

Something works really well in pve, 'oh no, thats slightly imbalanced in pvp, nerf it quick!!!!'

PyrAnkh · May 09, 2008, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Cannot say i didn't see this coming. This suggestion has been made by many people in about every inevitable QQ topic following a skillupdate. There is always pve people saying how their favorite *insert farm or way to breeze through HM here* got nerfed. (splinter nerf anyone?) After that, the solution given by the same people is exactly what is going to happen now. Oh well. Nobody runs DA in pve anyways, when you might as well run imbagon with TNTF and SY.
I can somewhat live with numbers changing but as soon as they will change the mechanics of skills that will cause some massive confusion. Things becoming half range, shout range, adjusted recharge, added or removed (side)effects, type of target (allies/partymembers) or complete reworks like we have seen before...i hope not.

Now before somebody else asks, i am willing to relieve you of those pve crafting materials you do not need anymore. Especially the pink shiny ones.

Squishy ftw · May 09, 2008, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Get ready because here comes a silly PvEr's opinion:

I don't like the sound of this atm.
If they will make skills stronger or even overpowered just because it's pve, then I think this will be an awful update. PvE doesn't needs even more overpowered skills, but they need players who can actually play, instead of mashing a few buttons on recharge like a bunch of headless monkies. (I have nothing against monkies.)

I always looked forward to skill updates, whether they were nerfs or buffs.
Nerfs made things interesting because you finally had to rework some of your and your hero's builds or even come up with entirely new tactics for some areas. And this part of the game(which I found fun) might just stop now, as I'm not really sure that anet will try to 'balance' pve by also toning down some skills, and not just buff some.
If they do try to keep some kind of balance in pve however, I might actually like it.

Divine is right in what he says, this will certainly not make things easier for those pvpers that also enjoy pveing. Which also counts for the pvers trying to get into pvp.

Oh and PyrAnkh, I pretty much always bring a DA para with me.

[email protected]@ck · May 09, 2008, 08:42 PM // 20:42

I've always wondered why they wouldn't just fix the skills for the PvP guys who thought they were unbalanced instead of also fu$king up the skills for the PvE guys also. You log on to do some elite area you are used to doing, then you say WTF why isn't things working like they were? Oh, because they nerfed my professions' skills for the PvP guys again (rolls eyes).

But on the other hand i kind of agreed with it somewhat, for the simple fact that i was thinking that what if i'm used to X skill with X damage and X Time recharge in PvE and then the same skill has lower damage and longer time recharge in PvP. I would most likely forget how the PvP skill worked and would probably get owned the first match then realize what i would have to change in my strategy.

If done correctly this could work, so don't knock it until you try it

DutchSmurf · May 09, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

The only problem I have with it is that there was no need for it to do it this way. We already had PvE only skills, why not expand on that idea? Like, Splinter Weapon as example. A problem in PvP, so it had to be nerfed. But in PvE it is a nice powerful skill. So you nerf Splinter Weapon and at the same time you introduce the PvE-only skill Splintering Weapon, which has the same stats as Splinter Weapon had, but can't be used on a bar with Splinter Weapon. Of course you don't do that with every skill you nerf, only the important ones.

Konig Des Todes · May 09, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

I can't say I didn't see this coming, many people were QQ'ing for a separation between PvP and PvE. This can lead to things being better or worse. I can say that HM will no longer be that Hard, for the few areas that it was hard in, and I now hope for a God Mode or something.

If done right, this will be great, if done poorly, well now they know what not to do for GW2 as there will be the same thing in GW2.

I personally hope that the only difference between the PvE skills and PvP skills is the numbers, and that casting distance is not affected at all.

I can say I will miss some updates as the nerfs made things a lot more interesting for PvE *even though many of the skills I use are either already nerfed and will never be touched again in PvP or are just never touched without any nerfs*

makosi · May 09, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

I think you're being presumptious about your playing 'feel'. I believe that you'll adapt quickly from the transition to PvP from PvE and it won't affect you much.

Perhaps, to begin with, it will be a nuisance to distinguish two skill descriptions but before long it will come as second nature.

It's similar to when you speak to a sibling like they're something you've stepped in, then answer the phone in a posh phone voice. The brain is good at switching.

RiKio · May 09, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

If they fix Monsters AI, the update will be fair anyway.....

BUT NOOOO!!!!

Lets bring easy things for babysiting the whinning PvErs.

This was what I hoped for, but, if doing so, Guild Wars needs a raised dificulty. If not.....

Crimzon_DST · May 09, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

This needed to be done long ago. There will never be anything which can make everyone happy, but nerfing skills which are used by say...10,000 people for example to make gameplay better for 100 people is total BS.

The numbers above were merely an example of the large difference of PvE players to PvP players for the simple minded

zling · May 09, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

people cried about all the awful "skill balances" Anet kept doing and asked Anet to have seperate skill descriptions for PvE and PvP, now that Anet finally does this you guys cry again!
you guys are just hypocrites!

anyway, this is a great change, hopefuly it will open up a lot of new options for PvP as they wont have the PvE limiting factor and vise versa...

as for the whole "feel" last time I checked PvP and PvE used entirely different skill bars, so meh...

KIDGOOCH · May 09, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Lets take this a step further and make PvP a separate game from PvE, diferenent skill names, costs, icons too. That PvP players will have no reason to wander into PvE territory and vice versa.

Best idea yet... PvP players don't have to buy PvE version to play their game, only need to buy unlock skills. PvE players don't have to listen to LEET sauce PvP players brag about stuff they could really care less about.

Segregation thats the key!!!

Turbobusa · May 09, 2008, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

people cried about all the awful "skill balances" Anet kept doing and asked Anet to have seperate skill descriptions for PvE and PvP, now that Anet finally does this you guys cry again!
you guys are just hypocrites!

anyway, this is a great change, hopefuly it will open up a lot of new options for PvP as they wont have the PvE limiting factor and vise versa...

as for the whole "feel" last time I checked PvP and PvE used entirely different skill bars, so meh...

Please don't compare me to the people in riverside complaining that splinter weapon will no longer be able to hit for 800dmg (literally), but only 250.